Interview with Eddie Muller
by Jon Jordan
Eddie's Web Site

March 2003

Any body who goes to Eddie Muller website or gets a chance to talk to him will soon know that this man loves Noir. He has an interesting background and writes a hell of a good book, whether its fiction or non-fiction. His latest fiction book came out this year and it’s called Shadow Boxer. --- Jon

Photo of Mr. Muller courtesy of Mr. Muller

JON:  Where and when did your interest in Noir start?

EDDIE:  I think I've traced it back to a single film: "Thieves' Highway." I saw it on Dialing for Dollars one afternoon when I was maybe fourteen. It's set in downtown San Francisco, my hometown, takes place entirely in the dead of night, and suggests that life will always be a struggle against the worst aspects of human nature. There you go. Basically, I'll watch anything with City, Night, Street, Dark or Big in the title.

JON:  Who is Billy Nichols and where did he come from?

EDDIE:  The character is based on my father, who was, in fact, "Mr. Boxing" at the San Francisco Examiner for many decades. In large measure, I was drawn to film noir because it seemed so close to the actual world in which my father made his living. That was the era in which my father was in his prime. I knew him and his cronies once they'd past that prime -- watching pictures like "Body and Soul" and "The Set Up" it seemed like I was watching glorified home movies of their youth.

JON:  When you wrote The Distance, were you planning on a series?

EDDIE:  No. The book was conceived as a stand-alone. Publishers of mystery fiction seem more eager these days to make offers for a series. Of course, my early drafts of "The Distance" spanned decades, and the book was much more of a sprawling opus, not a "crime novel," as Scribner calls it. I'd started it before I wrote "Dark City," my first film noir book -- but I totally revised my approach once I'd finished that book. I patterned it after the old 86 minute thrillers that I love. And I figured that all the stuff I had to leave out -- well, I'd be able to get around it eventually, writing a series.

JON:  You really ran Billy ragged in The Distance, and Shadow Boxer picks up right were The Distance stops. Have you given thought to at least a short story where Billy can relax a bit?

EDDIE:  That's an interesting point: Billy is a different sort of protagonist. I bristle when people refer to him as the "hero." He's not a knight errant in the Marlowe mold. He's much more of a noir character, a decent guy, but directly involved in all sorts of duplicity and dirty dealings. he struggles constantly to maintain his footing. This is vital to my concept of the character, and the series -- it's not about him coming in and cleaning up other people's messes and setting the world straight, like Lew Archer. He's entangled in nefarious businesses, and just trying to stay the course. How do you live with dignity in a world where the cancer is inoperable? That's an overriding theme with me. As for short stories -- Ha! Billy tells a million of them during the course of a novel! I hadn't thought of it that way before, but it's true: "The Distance" is a novel filled with short stories. It'd be fun to write some shorter Billy adventures. Believe me, there's no shortage of material.

JON:  What is it about the time period the books are set in that interests you?

EDDIE:  Two things: 1) mid-20th century is right where you can see our culture starting to lose its innocence. The image America had created for itself was beginning to crumble, and something unpleasant started leaking through that mask of eternal optimism. But having said that, we have . . . 2) the incredible style -- face it, everything we produced was better then. The clothes, the langauge, the architecture, the style . . . I easily relate to all that, but not in some sappy retro fashion. I don't know if people were any better, but America sure looked and sounded more interesting in 1948.

JON:  What kind of research is involved with writing a historical piece?

EDDIE:  You take nothing for granted. In trying to be accurate, I uncover all sorts of interesting things that bring extra depth and flavor to the writing. Because Billy works for a newspaper, its very important for me for go through the papers of the day and absorb what was actually happening at that time. And, of course, plenty of real stuff weaves its way in and out of the plots, so I want veracity regarding dates and times and all that. But its essential to work all that stuff into the batter so that it becomes part of the cake -- when your research comes off like frosting, you've blown it. I equate it with what an actor does to prepare for a role -- he absorbs the research in order to inhabit the character. If he's caught "wearing" the research, nobody's going to believe the performance for a minute. And writing IS a performance, especially if it's done first person.

JON:  What are some of your favorite films?

EDDIE:  In a Lonely Place, Nightmare Alley, Chinatown . . . it's a stew. The Wild Bunch. There's a western for you, just to be different. The Private Afternoons of Pamela Mann. Meshes In the Afternoon. Love in the Afternoon. It's movies, you know? I couldn't possibly list only a few.

JON:  If you were to put a soundtrack to your novels, what would be on it?

EDDIE:  I'm always looking for new "writing" music . . . I don't so much try to "score" the story I'm writing as much as I listen to music that offers inspiration. I love Tom Waits, and think "Blue Valentine" is one of the great works of noir art. But sonically, it has nothing to do with the world I'm depicting. Several critics have said they can "hear the sax wailing in the background" when they read "The Distance," which is kind of interesting, because I don't. I hear the newspaper office, the presses, the gymnasium, the street, the nightclubs -- and I try to imagine what music would come naturally in these places. I play Charlie Haden's disks a lot while writing, I like his pace. And he's a huge noir fan -- he feels it.

JON:  Who do you enjoy reading?

EDDIE:  OK, here's where I blow my cover. I've got several tall stacks of books in my office written by my new friends -- other mystery and crime writers I've gotten to know. I'll probably never get through them all. Truth is, I like to read OTHER types of stuff. Non-fiction. History books. Memoirs. I was recently introduced to Steven Millhauser, and love his stuff -- it's SO different, stylistically, from what I write. I enjoy Paul Auster's books.

JON:  You've founded the San Francisco Boxing Museum. What lead you to do this? Does San Francisco have a lot of boxing history?

EDDIE:  That was done as a tribute to my father, who was afraid no one would remember that at one time San Francisco was the Boxing Capital of the World. That was early in the last century, when all the major championship fights were held here. Before Tex Rickard came on the scene and Madison Square Garden became Mecca. Don't get me started.

JON:  It sounds like your Father was a large influence on you. What other things did he pass on to you?

EDDIE:  He had the ability to associate with, and gain the trust of, all different types of people -- politicians, priests, petty crooks and hustlers. I like to think I've absorbed a little of that as well.

JON:  If you could live life without any consequences for a month, would you do any thing different than you do now?

EDDIE:  Yes. But if you think I'll telling you what, guess again.

JON:  Sometimes consciously, sometimes not, writers seem to put a bit of them selves into their characters. What parts of you are in your books?

EDDIE:  I try to empathize with my characters, even ones I don't like. You have to invest a part of yourself in them -- maybe a part you're not too fond of -- if you want to understand what makes them tick. This is one of the most valuable parts of the writing process, I feel. Clearly, most of me is in Billy Nichols, although its really a combination of my father and me.

JON:  Are there any movies which are considered to be classics, and you just don't understand why people like them?

EDDIE:  I've given up being judgmental about movies. If somebody thinks "The Lady >From Shanghai" is Welles' greatest movie -- good for them. To me, it's virtually incoherent. I've learned that a movie happens between the screen and an individual's brain, and critical assessments, while all well and good, shouldn't matter when someone experiences a movie. In my film books, I choose to share my enthusiasms and lead people to movies they might not otherwise know about. I've got little interest in trying to prove that a "classic" is really a sham.

JON:  Is there any part of being a writer that you could do with out? The editing, or reading reviews? Maybe the nervousness of waiting for reactions to the work?

EDDIE:  Everything involved with the work is fulfilling -- the plotting struggles, the excitement of writing scenes, the rewriting, copyedits, anticipating the reaction. All good. I don't enjoy the business side, the constant feeling you're struggling to survive in an insensitive corporate business.

JON:  What other types of jobs have you had?

EDDIE:  House-painter and bartender, but other than that I've earned my living writing words since I was 23 years-old.

JON:  This question came up at a panel I saw at Bouchercon, and nobody really had an answer. What is Noir?

EDDIE:  Noir takes place in a world easily recognized as our own, and is characterized by a descent into darkness. Ordinary people find themselves compelled to a cross the line and abandon society's moral and legal strictures. The existential backbone of noir is that "fate" is essentially indifferent to your survival. You're on your own. Noir fiction is uncomfortable and ambiguous, not reassuring. This is something different than noir "style," which is what we all love about the expressionistic crime thrillers of the 1940s -- the sinister and seductive lighting. The Noir Look ended. Noir stories are still going strong.

JON:  What are you working on right now?

EDDIE:  A contemporary stand-alone noir love story. And a Hollywood biography. And the third Billy Nichols book.

JON:  And when you aren't working, what is taking up most of your time?

EDDIE:  I do a lot of these Film Noir Festivals around the country. It's gratifying to resurrect "long lost" movies and screen them again in theaters.

JON:  What's the one thing always in your refrigerator?

EDDIE:  Martini olives.